iPhone

[fischerm]

What? 9pm and no iPhone thread yet? We all must be really exauhsted from staff days!

So Apple (http://www.apple.com) computer, Inc introduced it's iPhone (http://www.apple.com/iphone) today. Part widescreen video iPod, part phone, part internet tablet, the thing looks pretty sweet so far. Worst part is we probably have to wait until June to get our hands on any. Check out the keynote demos, its really impressive to see.

Two questions I have, can I sync this thing with MeetingMaker (someone hack this to happen soon!), and can you unlock the thing? The last thing I want, is to be tied to Cingular for ANYTHING more than the two required years. If I terminate my contract how much of the device stops working?

[dcv]

It has a slot for a SIM card, so it'll probably be sold unlocked in the UK market, at least.

As for the US - I dunno. It probably COULD be unlocked, but getting the phone sans-plan would be either very hard or very expensive.

And yeah - I just watched the keynote. My god, this thing is slick. Scarily slick. Especially "pinching" the screen to zoom.

[dparm]

Go ahead and flame me for saying this, but the only reason anyone would pay $500+ for a cell phone would be if it had the Apple logo on it. If Motorola, Nokia, Siemens, Samsung, LG, or anyone else sold that device for $500 it'd collect dust on shelves.

Why there's no 3G support....I dunno, but that's a huge downfall.


Any GSM phone can be unlocked. The phone could also be bought with no contract. Even if you cancel the Cingular contract, you can just unlock the phone and use it with another GSM provider (T-Mobile in the US).

[dcv]

Go ahead and flame me for saying this

Okay.

the only reason anyone would pay $500+ for a cell phone would be if it had the Apple logo on it.

Tell that to every person I know who happily owns a Treo 650 or 700.

If Motorola, Nokia, Siemens, Samsung, LG, or anyone else sold that device for $500 it'd collect dust on shelves.

Motorola, Nokia, Siemens, Samsung, and LG don't make smartphones like (or, quite frankly, even approaching) the iPhone - and considering Apple has 200 patents on the iPhone's UI, I don't think they'll be able to make smartphones like this any time soon. Call me crazy, but theres... room for improvement in most smartphone UIs. If the Apple keynote I watched is any indication, the iPhone is going to be to smartphones what the iPod was to the mp3 players of 2001 - it'll perform most of the same tasks, but in a more eloquent manner and with an easier to use interface - should you be willing to pony up the extra $100 over the competition.

/*I didn't even mention the wifi support, music and video playback, and what looks to be probably the best portable internet browsing experience this side of a laptop*/

As for 3G - I don't know, that confuses me too.

As for being sold unlocked - it's $499/$599 only with a 2 year contract. I bet if you want it sans contract, it'll easily run up to the $700+ dollar range - tre expensive. I'd also imagine that Cingular wants to hang on to iPhone customers for dear life and will probably crank up the early termination fees should you purchase the phone then try to jump providers. Very hard - and/or very expensive.

[bgwinkel]

Tell that to every person I know who happily owns a Treo 650 or 700.
Last I checked, $500 and $600 with 2 year contract is larger then $100-$200 with a 2 year contract.
Motorola, Nokia, Siemens, Samsung, and LG don't make smartphones like (or, quite frankly, even approaching) the iPhone
I see you left out Palm and RIM, which is convenient, however...

Standard Apples vs Oranges comparison √

The iPhone is a consumer phone, offerings like the Treo are business class phones designed for things like Exchange.
what looks to be probably the best portable internet browsing experience this side of a laptop
If you have a WiFi hotspot, maybe. Lack of 3G kills this as a phone. I'd rather buy a DS lite and surf the web that way if I wanted a small device with WiFi capabilities.
room for improvement in most smartphone UIs
If sources are correct, this is using the new OS X embedded. Seeing as how that's a completely different class of OS then Windows Mobile (which is based on the very flexible Windows CE), comparisons also start to fall apart. Also, Windows Mobile is designed, like Windows XP and even Vista, to work (however painfully it may seem some times) with varying and relatively slow hardware. That's why they update Windows Mobile every year...the lowest common denominator increases substantially. For things like the Treo, Cingular gives out rebates of $200-$300. Putting that on the iPhone gives us a price range of $700-$900. That's paying for some pretty powerful hardware to run that software.

[fischerm]

I think most of you are right in guessing that this is a mass market consumer phone. Apple is not targeting the corporate world with this, nor are they targeting the geek community. If you simply compare stats and features, there are plenty of other offerings out there that compare well. On paper. There's no way this phone will be the perfect phone for everyone, but I still want one.

The lack of 3G does puzzle me as well. The demos showed the NYT website loading pretty pokey on a WiFi connection, I agree that EDGE might be pretty painful.

Price, ouch. However put it in perspective. If I recall, the original motorola RAZR was crazy expensive when it came out. 3 years later they're practically giving them away. Prices will come down.

To me the largest unanswered question so far is 3rd party application development. Is this an open platform that I can build apps for from within xcode?

[dcv]

Last I checked, $500 and $600 with 2 year contract is larger then $100-$200 with a 2 year contract.

Have they really dropped that low in price? Everybody I know dropped $500 on the spot for a new Treo.

//I may have to start shopping around again - my contract's up in two months, and I've always wanted a Treo

Regardless, most higher end smartphones easily run into the $400+ dollar range.

I see you left out Palm and RIM, which is convenient, however...

I started with mentioning the Treo - not to mention, Steve Jobs himself spent a good chunk of his keynote slamming the Treo and the Blackberry. But okay, here's a correction - Motorola, Nokia, Siemens, Samsung, Palm, RIM, and LG don't make smartphones like (or, quite frankly, even approaching) the iPhone.

Oh yeah, another big boon of the iPhone - it'll sync with Macs! Treo owners have to plop down extra cash for Missing Sync to sync with their Macs - and that application is spotty at best.


The iPhone is a consumer phone, offerings like the Treo are business class phones designed for things like Exchange.

Being that the iPhone runs OS X, and there are OS X apps that can communicate with Exchange, I'd say it's only a matter of time before a third party solution pops up.

You are indeed right about the iPhone being a consumer phone, however - in fact, Steve Jobs made this very point last night on CNBC. He said "I wish we could sell this thing for $100, but it costs more than that to make - but when manufacturing prices come down over the years, I don't see why everybody won't want one!" I appreciate this, myself - why should only businessmen be afforded the functionality of a smartphone?


If you have a WiFi hotspot, maybe. Lack of 3G kills this as a phone. I'd rather buy a DS lite and surf the web that way if I wanted a small device with WiFi capabilities.

Besides Wifi, it does EDGE too - which, in my experience, is quite good for browsing the internet. Plus - have you seen Safari running on the iPhone? It's not a crappy WAP browser like on most smartphones. It's more akin to the Opera browser on the Wii - fully featured and capable of displaying the full page at once whilst allowing for easy zooming. I can surf the net on my Wii - but surfing on my sister's Sidekick or her ex-boyfriend's Treo is a pain.//haven't tried the one on the DS, so I can't comment

//I still want 3G, though

[bgwinkel]

Being that the iPhone runs OS X, and there are OS X apps that can communicate with Exchange, I'd say it's only a matter of time before a third party solution pops up.
You still lose out on the vast suite of productivity solutions for those systems. But, third party Apps have yet to be confirmed. So far, all Apple's said is that 3rd party things can still go on the Dashboard, but that's it.
"I wish we could sell this thing for $100, but it costs more than that to make - but when manufacturing prices come down over the years, I don't see why everybody won't want one!"
And when manufacturing prices come down, there'll be equivilents (maybe even better phones) from other manufacturers!
it does EDGE too - which, in my experience, is quite good for browsing the internet.
*shudders*

[dcv]

Okay, seriously - am I the ONLY person in the world that doesn't think EDGE is slow?

And when manufacturing prices come down, there'll be equivilents (maybe even better phones) from other manufacturers!

Apple has over 200 patents on their UI, so I'm not expecting equivalents any time soon. If it's UI is half as good as they're claiming it is, this phone will be unrivaled in dead-simple usability for years to come - much like the iPod. And, much like the iPod, even when superior products come out, the iPhone will have achieved both marketshare and mindshare - it will still be the first product to come to mind when people think, "Hmm, I want and easy to use smartphone."

[nlopez]

Treos can crackberries don't have 4G of flash for MP3s though, and they still list for $499. I just checked Cingular, that's $499 for the Treo 750, with 2 year contract, any without room for MP3s. It's not out of the ball park, it's just high end.

[natalier]

okay i'm adding my two cents lol

1. I want a cool easy to use phone like that.

2. i'll get one when the pricing becomes lower the best deals are with the phone provider. i wish verizon get a cut of the deal so i can get one -___-

3. my only concern is the screen and how durable is it if it falls by accident.

okay thats all ^__^

[efischle]

I never really wanted a smartphone, I have my computer for web browsing and messaging, my ipod for music. Because I'm a girl, I can carry multiple gadgets in my purse and not worry about running out of pocket room. But man, I want that phone. It does everything I could ever want, it looks sleek, and I want to touch that touch screen.

[bgwinkel]

Apple has over 200 patents on their UI, so I'm not expecting equivalents any time soon.
Most of the patents are very similar to UMPC patents, so I'm not worried about patents. Also, Apple doesn't own the rights to multi-touch screens, which is the 'revolution' here.

[dparm]

FYI, Apple is now being sued by Cisco for using the name.....lol.

[bgwinkel]

Heh...I'd heard Apple had made a deal with Cisco. Guess not! And turns out the trademark is 10 years old, predating even the iMac.

http://news.com.com/Cisco+sues+Apple+over+use+of+iPhone+trademark/2100-1047_3-6149285.html

"Apple is playing chicken with Cisco, and there's other companies I'd rather play chicken with," he said, referring to Cisco's deep pockets.

Heh.

[rprice1]

I'm more or less annoyed because at this rate all phones are just going to be mimics of an iPhone now, just like mp3 players to iPods, or other phones to the razr. I'd much rather see a competing industry than a complete monopoly created by apple's brand recognition... and yes I'd take one :)

[rbrestel]

I'm still in a rapturous fit of fanboy glee. I'm already on Cingular, and my contract is up for renewal at around the time of the release.

I want to touch it like it has already touched my heart. :eek:

[bgwinkel]

You do realize Apple is probably one of the most litigious companies in existence right now, right? They WILL sue at the drop of a hat. You may not worry about patents - but companies with something to lose do.
See, the thing is I don't worry about those patents because they're owned by people like Intel and Samsung. Also, they've lost most if not all of their recent fights, like where they were forced to pay pentalties to Creative for patent infringement over the iPod OS.
Oh, and they did indeed patent their implementation of multi-touch. You should check out the keynote.
*sigh* They don't own multi-touch technology...they might own a specific way it's used within OS X, but that's hardly spectacular and not the technology. They've licensed it. And I watched the keynote.
The iPhone is revolutionary - in that it basically fixes what's been wrong with phones for so long.
By throwing hardware at it...brute force is hardly revolution in my book.

[bgwinkel]

I'm not even going to touch the Creative deal - though, suffice to say, it's not an uncommon opinion that Creative actually got the short end of the stick on that one.
...

$100 million and a free ride onto the iPod accessory market is an awfully short stick? Are you serious?
I fail to see what exactly Intel and Samsung have to do with the iPhone - the fact that they built the UMPC has zero to do with the 200 patents that Apple has filed for their own new UI.
But it has everything to do with the dozens of patents that they've filed for their own UIs and hardware tech that do the same things. And just as one example, there's a reason Apple buys so much stuff from Samsung, and it's not like Samsung gives them exclusive access.
They didn't have to throw hardware at the problem - I'm more than willing to bet that, on a purely technological level, past the giant touchscreen, the iPhone isn't all that different from every other smartphone on the market
Which is why apple won't say what's running it? Which is why it costs $750+? If it's the same hardware, Apple has an absolutely killer margin that won't survive the first time someone dissects one.
It's the UI on this phone that truly differentiates the iPhone from its competitors (Treos, Blackberries, Nokia's n95, etc). It's the UI that I claim "fixes what's been wrong with phones for so long." And that don't have nuthin' to do with the hardware - it's all software at that point.
What's the UI based on? OS X embedded. What are all the other smartphones running? Windows Mobile, which is CE 5.0, which is a limited and flexible OS designed to run on practically anything, from smartphones to automobile production lines. OS X embedded, like XP or Vista embedded, is designed to run on faster hardware. This is just common sense. In order for it to handle all the effects and jazz it had in the demo, it /has/ to have stronger hardware. Also, advanced touchscreens aren't cheap.
a) how big of a fiasco the ROKR turned out to be
That was so both companies doing. Motorola figured that it iTunes capability wasn't that big of a deal as others cranked out mp3 phones, and Apple, well, we've always guessed they're heart wasn't in it because we were so sure that Apple would release their own. Then they didn't, but now vindication is sweet.

[bgwinkel]

Between these two quotes, are you saying the iPhone is cheap, or is expensive?
Which is why it costs $750+? If it's the same hardware, Apple has an absolutely killer margin that won't survive the first time someone dissects one.
What I'm saying here is that if it's the same $300 hardware, but at a $750 price, no one's going to stand for that, so obviously, it's more expensive and higher-powered then your standard smartphone.
"WHAT? An Apple product with a giant margin? They NEVER do that! What company would EVER dream of such a thing?"
Apple's discovered that through the miracle of economies of scale it can push more devices, become a larger brand, and in the end pull a larger profit if it doesn't have gigantic margins. This is why they price-matched Creative in the MP3 market in 2004, and kicked the living daylights out of the Zen line. So, no, I actually don't see them doing that with the iPhone because they've learned how to pull a stable profit.

[bgwinkel]

And I claim that it's evolutionary, a product of more processor cycles and that can be dedicated to things other then the basic functionalities of current phones.

Also, I can forsee a number of problems with a fingers-only input. One major thing I did not see addressed was gorilla arm. Also, what about selecting between a couple of letters to fix a spelling error (like when, say, you type in a name the phone doesn't recognize and 'spell checks' it for you). The list goes on, but the point is, this isn't some 'new idea', it's the evolution of an old one.

[dcv]

"Revolutionary: markedly new or introducing radical change"

This phone is making smartphones easy to use. This phone is breaking away from the more technically-minded crowd of Treo and Blackberry owners and making smartphones appealing to the masses. This phone makes convergence of many devices seamless and slick. This phone may well cause a radical shift in how phone UIs are designed in the coming years. This phone may prompt other phone manufacturers to beef up the hardware in their phones to compete. This phone is so slick that my 53-year-old mom is planning on buying one (without getting into too much excruciating detail, let's just say that she is my gold standard of technologically-challenged people).

Going off of the definition of the word "revolutionary," I fail to see how anybody could possibly claim that, for better or for worse, the iPhone isn't revolutionary.

/*and seriously - when you've convinced my mother to buy your gadget, you've done the near-impossible*/

As far as fingers-only input goes - Apple has been at work on this project for two-and-a-half years, and if there is one company I trust to do user interfaces well, it's Apple. Steve Jobs is a perfectionist and a jerk, after all - he built the phone as much for himself as much as for the masses, and you'd better believe that he has higher standards than you or I.

[bgwinkel]

Anyone actually willing (which is different from just saying they're willing) to automatically spend $600 and signing a two year $50+/month Cingular contract for Gen 1 hardware without actually trying it out is nuts.
I fail to see how anybody could possibly claim that, for better or for worse, the iPhone isn't revolutionary.
Revolution means radical change, a breaking of the meme.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/sensors.html

Accelerometer in this application is years old, proximity sensors same, and varying brightness to save battery-life was developed years ago as well by Intel.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/wireless.html

I'd call this one an anti-revolution

http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/

Multi-touch is not a revolution, and spell-checking/predictive alogorithms are hardly anything new...this one just happens to be this way out of necessity thanks to it being such a small screen and that annoying 'gorilla arm' effect, which I still don't believe has been banished.

I think, perhaps, the thing that irks me the most is the declaration of this device as the Messiah of handheld devices, when no ones actually had a real chance to look at this thing in a 3rd party sort of way.

[natalier]

woah people calm down ^^;

[fischerm]

I think the big winner here will be consumers, and other phone manufacturers. The loosers will be the major cell networks. Up to now the network has ALWAYS dictated terms to the hardware manufacturers. Look at how Verizon criples its hardware and then nickle and dimes customers to use features that should be available. The Apple - Cingular deal will give the other manufacturers the ammunition to tell the networks where to shove their restrictive policies. In the end more consumers will be able to use features that are currently 'premium' (bluetooth sync with computers, real ringtones, real chat instead of this crap 10c per SMS, etc).

...I had a similar thought - that all other phone companies will very soon start "borrowing" from the iPhone. However, I don't view it in such a negative light - let's be honest, most phones (smart, and otherwise) suck. There is plenty of competition in the cell phone world - and it's led to vendors relying on bullet-points on fact sheets put there by half-baking ideas and throwing them inside poorly designed phones made as cheaply as possible while they toss rebates around trying to sell phones for $49* - *after rebates. /*what? me? bitter? and unable to express my frustration in a coherent manner? perish the thought.*/ You know what the current competition hasn't bred? A decent phone!

The iPhone is revolutionary - in that it basically fixes what's been wrong with phones for so long.

My hope is that the iPhone will make phone manufacturers realize something - rather than compete on price, they should compete on features. And not just bullet point features - there are plenty of phones that play music, show videos, surf the net, and keep contacts. Make these features GOOD. Make them INTUITIVE and EASY. Make people WANT TO USE THEM. You don't have to copy Apple verbatim to do these things - just make your current phones suck less. But hey - copying Apple will definitely be an improvement!

[picch]

/me grabs popcorn and a lawn chair

[bgwinkel]

I claimed that the iPhone was revolutionary in that it is making smartphone functionality intuitive and accessible (in the sense of easy to use, not cheap/easy to purchae) to the masses with the first really good phone UI I've ever seen.
I'm not sure you can call it that before people actually try it out. Cool looking interfaces that seem to be intuitive in the beginning, with time, become aggravating. Touchscreen tech died out in the 80s because of the 'gorilla arm' effect. We, as humans, aren't designed to manipulate things with a finger out in front of us. This is why we use a stylus or pen on small touchscreens today. Has Apple addressed this? Again I say no.

Also, the UI itself looks a lot like Vista embedded I saw I couple weeks ago. (not the inputs, but the UI)
That is a FAR more important revolution to behold - this could be the start of a very important and radical shift in the phone industry to put more functionality into their phones across the line and refocus their efforts on useability.
I'm not sure what functionality current phones are missing...
release a great product that addresses the concerns and needs of the masses. If this phone is even half of what it's being hyped as, it will be a marked improvement over most every other phone in existence. Is this a testament to Apple's reputation for building amazing hardware?
I for one, am less convinced. Remember the Newton.

[jharriso]

This is a first generation product - first generation products are always going to have weird issues that the company didn't run into in internal testing. Remember the whole tube of thermal paste used in the MBP? The strip of plastic over the cooling vent in the MB? We haven't had any OS X embedded products, as far as I know, ever. Who is to say it will be as flexible or stable as we're hoping?

Honestly, while the multi-touch thing seems nice, I think it will get annoying pretty quickly.

What kills the iPhone for me is the lack of a hardware keypad, qwerty or not. If I'm driving, I don't dial via my phone's touch screen, I use the keypad. The tactile nature of the keypad is important for basic operation of the phone.

Battery life is probably an issue people will be unhappy with too. The inclusion of the mp3 player component means that with standard use of both the phone and music player, your battery life will probably be about a day.

If I have learned anything about Apple's marketing and products in the past few years, it is that they are human too. They've got some great stuff, their OS is glorious, their designers are genius, and they are amazing marketers. Honestly, though, they don't do anything particularly special in the realm of hardware, or in the realm of embedded software. Sure, the ipod's OS is simple, but it's locked down and restrictive, especially compared to people like, say Archos.

I think we should take the iphone with a grain of salt - don't idolize something before it's been out for at least a month or two. It could well be "revolutionary".

Also, Dane, I think it's unfair to pan all smartphones out there as clumsy horrible machines - have you tried them all? Some of them may certainly require a bit of exploration to unlock their full potential, but so will the iphone. Personally, I couldn't be much happier with my Windows Mobile 5 based smartphone. I went in and customized some things to suite me better, but for the average user, it does everything you could want, and ultimately, a lot more.

I predict that, like every other smart phone out there, this will be a PDA first, and a phone second.

Also, right now, I could get my phone on a two year contract, with a 8gb SDHC card, apply a registry hack, and be on my way with an 8gb music playing smart phone for $300.

[dcv]

This is a first generation product - first generation products are always going to have weird issues that the company didn't run into in internal testing. Remember the whole tube of thermal paste used in the MBP? The strip of plastic over the cooling vent in the MB? We haven't had any OS X embedded products, as far as I know, ever. Who is to say it will be as flexible or stable as we're hoping?

Yet those problems didn't deter people from buying these products en masse. The first generation Macbook Pros still sold like hotcakes, and the first generation Macbook won numerous accolades from both Mac and PC magazines. That is because, in spite of these problems, these were still solid products.

Honestly, while the multi-touch thing seems nice, I think it will get annoying pretty quickly.

What kills the iPhone for me is the lack of a hardware keypad, qwerty or not. If I'm driving, I don't dial via my phone's touch screen, I use the keypad. The tactile nature of the keypad is important for basic operation of the phone.

That is a point on which you and I differ, I suppose - I don't see the need for a keypad being as big a deal as some are making it out to be, but this is a valid criticism.

Battery life is probably an issue people will be unhappy with too. The inclusion of the mp3 player component means that with standard use of both the phone and music player, your battery life will probably be about a day.

Battery life is rated at 5 hours talk, 16 hours of "just music" playback. I'd heard rumor that, to ensure, this there are actually two separate batteries - one for the phone, one for the mp3 player. Yes, this battery life is less than ideal, but it's about par for the course for most smartphones I've encountered (if you know of one with better battery life, please let me know - I'd like to try it).

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the iPhone has a 30-pin dock connector, and a number of manufacturers already manufacture external batteries for the iPod that connect via the dock connector - I forsee a number of third party batteries popping up for this thing soon after it comes out. An ideal solution? No - but it's at least something to keep in mind.

If I have learned anything about Apple's marketing and products in the past few years, it is that they are human too. They've got some great stuff, their OS is glorious, their designers are genius, and they are amazing marketers. Honestly, though, they don't do anything particularly special in the realm of hardware, or in the realm of embedded software. Sure, the ipod's OS is simple, but it's locked down and restrictive, especially compared to people like, say Archos.

One thing I've painstakingly learned in my years of hanging out on slashdot and ranting and raving about DRM'd music and vendor lock-in is that "locked down" and "restrictive" mean absolutely nothing to most people who aren't tech savvy. I really don't see that as an issue - if it were, Archos and iRiver would have bigger marketshare.

And again, I want to make this point: it's not that the hardware itself is anything special - iPods have similar guts to other mp3 players, the Macbook family are still just intel laptops, etc. - yet other mp3 manufacturers haven't put out an mp3 player with an experience on par with using an iPod, and other laptop manufacturers can't provide the experience that accompanies using a Macbook. Apple doesn't sell revolutionary hardware - they sell revolutionary experiences top to bottom.

/*yes, I do realize how fanboy-ish that sounds - but I'm comfortable enough with my geekiness to admit that I think Apple does a damn good job at making their products play nice from top to bottom, saving me the trouble of having to do it myself*/

I think we should take the iphone with a grain of salt - don't idolize something before it's been out for at least a month or two. It could well be "revolutionary".

I know full well that I should be taking this announcement with a grain of salt, but I find it hard not to be excited - I HATE phones. The iPhone was designed by people that HATE phones as much as I do - and that makes me very excited. Whenever people complain, you hear people say "well, why don't you stop complaining and do it yourself?!?" Finally, Apple did - and I applaud them.

Also, Dane, I think it's unfair to pan all smartphones out there as clumsy horrible machines - have you tried them all? Some of them may certainly require a bit of exploration to unlock their full potential, but so will the iphone. Personally, I couldn't be much happier with my Windows Mobile 5 based smartphone. I went in and customized some things to suite me better, but for the average user, it does everything you could want, and ultimately, a lot more.

I've tried every iteration of the Treo since the 600, a few Blackberries (including that pretty new Pearl), my sister's Sidekick, and a few of the Nokia smartphones. True, I haven't tried EVERY smartphone out there, but what I have seen really fails to impress me, whether it be Windows Mobile, Palm OS, or something the company homebrewed. To speak anecdotally - I couldn't help but laugh when my sister's ex-boyfriend (who is by all means a rather smart guy) borrowed his friend's phone to call me because he couldn't figure out where to look for pictures on his Treo. That was also when it dawned on me that most of the smartphones out there aren't meant for the general population.

//that anecdote aside, the Treo 700p is still my personal favorite smartphone

Also, right now, I could get my phone on a two year contract, with a 8gb SDHC card, apply a registry hack, and be on my way with an 8gb music playing smart phone for $300.

Surely you must realize that you are in the minority, though - my mother certainly won't be doing anything of this sort, nor will the vast majority of phone buyers. The whole point of the iPhone is to give everybody (not just geeks and businessmen) this sort of functionality that you're hacking into your phone - easily, and without the hassle.

[dparm]

Smartphones/PDAs/PocketPCs are not for everyone, I think we can agree on that.

Maybe the iPhone can change that. We don't know yet, and we won't until it hits the shelves and people have had a few months to use them. Right now we're just speculating (in a very heated way, might I add) about something that hasn't even happened yet.

In the end, people need to buy what they're comfortable with. I'm perfectly satisfied with WM5 Smartphone Edition, whereas others are very satisfied with their Treos, Sidekicks, 8125s, Blackberries, etc.

[dcv]

I'm not sure you can call it that before people actually try it out. Cool looking interfaces that seem to be intuitive in the beginning, with time, become aggravating. Touchscreen tech died out in the 80s because of the 'gorilla arm' effect. We, as humans, aren't designed to manipulate things with a finger out in front of us. This is why we use a stylus or pen on small touchscreens today. Has Apple addressed this? Again I say no.

I think Apple has put good amounts of thought into their UI - I'm sure that they were well aware of the problems that plague touchscreens when designing the UI and addressed them until Steve Jobs himself was satisfied. I again reiterate - Steve Jobs is a perfectionist and a jerk with higher standards than you or I.

Also, the UI itself looks a lot like Vista embedded I saw I couple weeks ago. (not the inputs, but the UI)

I have an entirely separate diatribe prepared when it comes to comparing anything Vista to anything OS X - but that's for another time and place.

I'm not sure what functionality current phones are missing...

I was saying that, since it seems we're in agreement that despite the smartphone functionality, the iPhone is meant for consumers, I hope that phone manufacturers will put more of that functionality into their consumer-level phones (that's what I meant by "across the line" - sorry if that was unclear).

I for one, am less convinced. Remember the Newton.

The newton was a PDA aimed at businessmen (many of whom even today swear that the Newton was the greatest PDA ever built), and it was designed and manufactured during Apple's "dark times" during the 1990s - the iPhone is a convergence device designed and manufactured under Steve Jobs (the perfectionist jerk). I think comparisons between the two are not going to be apt - this isn't the same product, and it most definitely isn't the same company.

[dcv]

(in a very heated way, might I add)

Yeah, it's mostly me - sorry. It's just that I did most of the arguing last night - and it was the first day of school - and I was tired - and I was getting frustrated having to repeat myself - and I ran out of coffee - and my head hurt - and I ran out of milk - etc.

I'm feeling better now, though, and I hope my last few responses were a bit more civil.

//at least they were free of really snarky comments!

[bgwinkel]

I think Apple has put good amounts of thought into their UI - I'm sure that they were well aware of the problems that plague touchscreens when designing the UI and addressed them until Steve Jobs himself was satisfied.
I don't trust one man to fix every UI issue touchscreens have had since the 1980s.
I was saying that, since it seems we're in agreement that despite the smartphone functionality, the iPhone is meant for consumers, I hope that phone manufacturers will put more of that functionality into their consumer-level phones
Like the Blackjack? 3G?
I have an entirely separate diatribe prepared when it comes to comparing anything Vista to anything OS X
I'm sure you do, but in this case, Vista embedded demos were released before this so there's no copying there.

[jharriso]

If I'm right, Dane, what you're saying is essentially that:
While the iphone is not excatly unique, if Apple's previous UI trackrecord holds true, the learning curve for this device will be low enough that most consumers will be willing to invest their time and money in learning how to use it.
Right?
I can definitely understand getting excited over that. As has been said, we'll have to wait and see if it lives up to that ideal, of course. Personally, I'd still rather hack my electronics to hell and back, but for the "noobs" of the world (with $600 to blow), that's not a realistic proposition.

Also on the whole Vista vs OS X thing, both systems have stolen so very very much over the years that I don't really see the point in keeping score.

[dcv]

I don't trust one man to fix every UI issue touchscreens have had since the 1980s.

This isn't the first time people have doubted Steve Jobs and Apple with regards to what they can and can't fix on current day tech (Quothe /. on the original iPod - "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame."). Steve Jobs has done the impossible before - a few times, actually. I personally have faith.

Like the Blackjack? 3G?

Even now, the RAZR and Chocolate are still appealing to a separate market from the Blackjack IMHO - the consumer market is still somewhat separate. The iPhone is looking to change this.

I'm sure you do, but in this case, Vista embedded demos were released before this so there's no copying there.

This phone has been developed completely in secret over the course of two-and-a-half years and is based on much older tech (unless you want to wager that Vista's kernel predates OS X, BSD, and NeXT) - if you are trying to imply that the iPhone copied Vista embedded, I think you should reconsider. But again - a separate diatribe completely.

[dcv]

If I'm right, Dane, what you're saying is essentially that:
While the iphone is not excatly unique, if Apple's previous UI trackrecord holds true, the learning curve for this device will be low enough that most consumers will be willing to invest their time and money in learning how to use it.
Right?
I can definitely understand getting excited over that. As has been said, we'll have to wait and see if it lives up to that ideal, of course. Personally, I'd still rather hack my electronics to hell and back, but for the "noobs" of the world (with $600 to blow), that's not a realistic proposition.

Yes, that is a great summation of what I'm saying. I just wish I could afford one of these things when they come out and get in on the fun myself! :)

[moser]

autologon

[bgwinkel]

(Quothe /. on the original iPod - "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.")
Less space than a Nomad for a much higher price, mind you. iPods didn't take off until 3G-4G as they worked out the price and bugs.
Even now, the RAZR and Chocolate are still appealing to a separate market from the Blackjack IMHO - the consumer market is still somewhat separate.
Yeah, the non-smartphone market.
if you are trying to imply that the iPhone copied Vista embedded
Nope, that neither copied the other.

[bgwinkel]

Yeah, that really hurt the iPod, didn't it?
Uh...4G is when they price-matched Creative...
Actually, the iPod really started taking off when they added Windows support (and prior to that was doing great among Mac owners who were buying mp3 players) - but again, a separate discussion from this one.
Hang on, you're not going to get off on comparisons like that, that easily. Full Windows compatibility was acheived in mid-2003, so...this graph should spike up in '03.

http://www.sparkplug9.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/itunesversusipods.jpg

Nope, Q3 and Q4 '04 is when iPod sales took off. So price controlled the capitalistic electronics market? Wouldn't have thought...
That Apple is trying to reach.
Some (many) people just want a phone...that's why 'free' phones with plans control the vast majority of the market. A $600 device won't change that.

[bgwinkel]

Some (many) people just want an mp3 player...that's why 128MB flash mp3 players that take CompactFlash cards control the vast majority of the market. A $400 device won't change that.
Yeah, let's just ignore we're referring to Gen 1 iPods here. Gen 3 and Gen 4 iPods were different beasts in different markets. Honestly, I can pull out numbers and facts all the day long about this. Like how did Apple get half of the flash player market? They undercut the prices of everyone else, went for 20% margins instead of 25-30%. They won through capitalism. But we're failing to see something else as well. Before people paid a good amount of money for an MP3 player, then payed not too much more for an iPod. You're saying people will give up their free devices for $600 ones? Seriously. But in the end, I will stand by my 'evolution', not 'revolution' idea.

Just in...unsuprisingly, the iPhone is powered by Samsung!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-powered-by-samsung-not-intel/

and...uh...eventual lawsuit #2?

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/12/15/the-lg-ke850-touchable-chocolate/
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/12/15/the-lg-ke850-touchable-chocolate/

Hopefully LG is making the iPhone?

[bgwinkel]

the iPod had 33% marketshare!
In hard drive players...in 2002...

Do I really need to continue?
I think you're underestimating the number of people willing to pay for a quality product.
Willing to pay $600? That's not pocket change. $600 is why the PS3 is floundering, and in that market, we're used to paying a couple to a few hundred dollars for equipment.

And apparently "Visual Voicemail" is owned too...by Citrix in collaberation with Cisco...heh.

http://www.citrix.com/English/ps2/products/subfeature.asp?contentID=21466

And it even does the SAME EXACT THING!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/11/apple_citrix_visualvoicemail/

And multi-touch?

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/07/fics-linux-based-fic-gta001-gsm-smartphone-encourages-hacking/

"Sporting a 2.8-inch 640 x 480 resolution touchscreen with "multi-touch gesture recognition"

http://www.slashgear.com/fic-linux-cellphone-can-it-capture-the-imagination-of-the-open-source-community-072392.php/2

Whoops.

[bgwinkel]

nevermind

[dcv]

I'd like to apologize for my behavior in this thread. I know that the discussion got really heated. I normally pride myself on my ability to carry on civil debate and discourse - but in this case, I just got so frustrated from having to repeat myself over and over again and having to deal with straw man arguments. Regardless, that is no excuse for my snarky comments - I know that I should have more tact and I should have just gotten out of the argument. Worse, I know that it was in the public forum and not the private forum, and it doesn't reflect positively on myself or OSCR at large.

In this spirit, I've deleted my over-the-top snarky and rude posts (and saved the moderators the trouble, I hope), and if any of you reading this thread feel that the few posts I haven't deleted are over-the-top as well, please let me know - I will delete them as well. The deleted comments are not representative of myself and my attitude, and they are most definitely not representative of OSCR. We are all here to help clients, not bicker amongst ourselves. Next time around, I will be much better about holding true to this idea.

Again, I apologize.

[amccabe]

if you can't debate in a forum, where can you debate?

I had no problem with the thread.

[picch]

if you can't debate in a forum, where can you debate?

I had no problem with the thread.

Agreed :D

[moser]

Side note...don't know where "autologon" post came from...wasn't me....

[fischerm]

iPhone will be a closed platform. :(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16566968/site/newsweek/page/2/

Made the excuse that they don't want us looser developers breaking Cingular's network.

[dcv]

iPhone will be a closed platform. :(

Not quite, but it's pretty close.

“These are devices that need to work, and you can’t do that if you load any software on them,” he said. “That doesn’t mean there’s not going to be software to buy that you can load on them coming from us. It doesn’t mean we have to write it all, but it means it has to be more of a controlled environment.”

- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/12/technology/12apple.html

So it won't exactly be a free-for-all-third-party-app-fest (hmm, I wonder if I used enough dashes there...), but it would appear that people can write apps for the iPhone - they're just going to have to go through Apple first.

[dparm]

^ This is extremely disappointing. Windows Mobile devices have tons of user-designed apps available that do everything. Apple might be shooting themselves in the foot here.

Cingular might also be influencing them (so people are forced to buy Cingular's apps).

[jharriso]

I have faith in communities like howard forums and pda phone home to hack the crap out of the iphone and allow either the generation of signed code as a developer, or the execution of unsigned code.

[rjhill1]

Ok, I have to chip-in my "aww lame" after reading the Newsweek article Mark posted. One thing I was looking for was for the iPhone to use my MP3's as a ringtone (something my current LG VX3200 does for free, albeit with some h4x0ring). Apparently the iPhone may be able to do just that. The catch: the same reason I go through the trouble of uploading clips to my phone, it's going to cost money.

Thank you, locked down phones. I am definitely incapable of handling things myself, so I'd much rather pay you to do them for me. I really appreciate your help in life.

I thought the iPhone was going to be pretty awesome, until I heard the price (guess who's penniless right now) and how they really sold it out to Cingular. Tsk, tsk. iPhone Linux, anyone? ;)

[fischerm]

So it won't exactly be a free-for-all-third-party-app-fest (hmm, I wonder if I used enough dashes there...), but it would appear that people can write apps for the iPhone - they're just going to have to go through Apple first.
I suppose the real question then will be how onerous it will be to get Apple's seal of approval for an iPhone app. OSCR does maintain a developer license with Apple, so we'll see what comes down that channel in the coming months.

[emurphy1]

Macworld has some good articles today regarding the iPhone. This one is their thoughts after actually getting their hands on an iPhone, http://www.macworld.com/2007/01/firstlooks/iphonefl/index.php.

One thing that is discussed is 3rd party applications. All indications are that developing full blown apps for the iPhone will be much like developing games for the iPod now. That is you will only be able to purchase the software from iTunes and Apple will decide which games get on iTunes. There is currently much complaining in the Apple game developer world about this exact problem. Look at the games you can buy from iTunes now...what's missing? How about software from most of the long time Apple game developers. Yeah, Apple has definately pissed off many 3rd party developers. Their "closed" aka "tightly controlled" spin on 3rd party development is fully expected to continue with iPhone.

It is expected that Apple will be much more open about 3rd party dashboard widgets that will be able to run on the iPhone. Leopard, 10.5, will include a new IDE, Dashcode (http://developer.apple.com/tools/dashcode/) that will make developing dashboard widgets even easier.

So far none of the Apple Developer communication I've received has discussed development of full blown apps for iPhone. I'll keep you posted.